Queer voices in yogyakarta- pt.2
- Episode 09- Transcript
Georgie Williams, voiceover: Last episode, we started our exploration of the experiences of LGBTQ+ citizens of the city of Yogyakarta, Indonesia. The stories of Ai and Ferdi, a Muslim lesbian and a gay Christian man, gave us insight into what it means to grow up as a non-heterosexual Indonesian. In part two, we will be talking to June and Alfi, binary and non-binary transmen who have navigated visible queerness and the complexities of Indonesian masculinity in the process of living authentically as their true gender. It is with great fortune that we have been given the opportunity to hear these important stories and, upon reflection, we will be asking an important question- what can a global queer community do for the LGBTQ+ citizens of Indonesia? Welcome to part two of Queer Voices in Yogyakarta and Episode 9 of /Queer. You’re here with me, your host, Georgie Williams.
Having interviewed Ai, Ferdi, June and Alfi at the same time, I was aware that I was going to have to separate these interviews over two separate episodes. The decision was made to separate based on gender and sexuality- sexuality being covered in part one, and gender in part two. Where in Episode 7 we explored Waria culture, a third gender identity which is often conflated or compared with being a transgender woman, this episode is about exploring contemporary transgender experiences within the younger Indonesian community. As this is a community who have had access to the internet and, in turn, global resources regarding LGBTQ+ identities, it feels more appropriate to use Western terms like transgender. In this context, we must consider gender identity variance as being different to transness- we are talking about transitioning as a verb, having been assigned one gender identity at birth but truly identifying as another, which is different to identifying with a gender identity which was assigned to you and simply exists outside of a modern Western gender binary, as we see in many indigenous communities around the world.
My third interviewee and the first of this episode, was June. June is a nomaden or nomadic trans man currently living in Yogyakarta- nomadic indicating he currently has no geographically fixed home. He is heavily involved in the local LGBTQ+ communities and works as a driver and a calligrapher.
June, in interview: First things first, it’s really hard for LGBTQ person that live in Indonesia to even access information- what is LGBTQ about? And coming in as some specific gender identity or um, sexual orientation or something like that. But my experience has been… smoother, it has been smoother than the others because luckily I found the information about LGBTQ from YouTube and actually it was really [helpful] for me, so much help and… it started when I was in high school. The time when, basically, I was questioning myself. Like, what am I, what i like… because I was really confused about myself. I fall for um, a girl, but I didn’t like, I didn’t like any boys in my school. [laughs] so, that was funny, but then somehow I watched a video on YouTube- they were talking about a nonbinary person I guess, genderfluid person and I was like… okay, so this person has no gender or something [laughs] but I started digging about the information more and more and I found myself like… okay, this is literally me. Maybe I am this maybe I am that and I was quite sure about being lesbian at that time. That was um, my first thing, coming in as a lesbian. And then next year, after um, I graduated from high school I started questioning about my gender. So it’s double questioning time! [laughs] like, first about sexual orientation and then gender identity. I started digging more and more about gender identity- I found myself as a trans man, nonbinary at that time. I was quite happy with that but I had no space, I had no room to express myself more because I, I had no idea what to do with that. I mean okay I found my identity, my gender identity, my sexual orientation and everything but I couldn’t express it more.
So I tried to find communities in Jogja, I mean, LGBTQ communities in Jogja through Instagram- and I found one person who was quite feminist in Jogja and he was a trans man and I was like wow, okay, this guy is cool but, how can I reach him? But I didn’t reach him out because I… had to work hard. And then yeah just, one year passed until 2018. I was seeking for another job. I didn’t find any jobs that would suit with me cause I was to worry about my gender identity, etc and, yeah it’s, it’s real, when you want to look for jobs as an LGBTQ person in Indonesia, especially when you have a quite different gender expression- then the only option I had at that time was just… becoming a driver. And I did, I did, I did that, I registered myself and I became a driver. And to be honest I’ve never been to college or university actually because first… I’m a poor man. I don’t have a lot of money and I can’t afford, I can’t afford to go to university or something and… second, it’s a serious reason for me to not go to university because...I have a big fear about persecution from the people, cause if they know and they find out that i’m a trans man, probably they will kill me… that is my fear actually. I had some persecution also, from my family of course. Not because my gender identity- they have no idea what I am until now [laughs]- they don’t know it… they’re so… not innocent but… so conservative. And I don’t know how to communicate with my family because we have very different frequencies to be in one conversation. They have no idea what I’m talking about and I have no idea what they’re talking about.
Georgie Williams, voiceover: It is not unusual for individuals to come to understand their gender identity through their understanding of their sexual orientation. Often, it is our attraction or lack of to others which can be a first indicator of our queerness, before any gender-related introspection occurs. However, we should be aware that no sexuality is a prerequisite for any gender identity. Although many trans men do initially identify as a lesbian, there are many trans men who have always experienced attraction to men and are therefore now gay or queer men, instead of just being cisgender women who were attracted to men. Although sexual orientation can, in some cases, change during one’s gender transition, this is absolutely not a universal experience or even the norm- we should consider gender to be a factor that can influence sexuality, but not the cause of it.
Georgie Williams, in interview: Thank you so much for sharing that, I really appreciate the insight and also… how sensitive that is as a subject. So thank you so much. So to go onto our next question, if you’re happy to do that, I want to ask you- from your perspective and based on experiences you’ve had an your understanding of the current situation- what can individuals from outside of Indonesia’s LGBTQ+ community do to support your community and the causes that matter to you at this time?
June, in interview: There is not much that you can do in physical help actually because… it’s really hard for us to get the access… like maybe, maybe the funding… it’s quite impossible for us to get that. But there are many things also that you as an outsider [can do] to help us like… spread the message and telling us that we’re not alone and tell us about what to do in this situation and how to um, how to grow our self esteem and be okay being queer. That’s an important thing, like, we basically don’t know how to act when we found out we are queer, we are gay or something. Basically just shocked at that time and being reckless, we just found out something that’s really ‘wild’ [laughs] but actually it’s not that wild, okay? So yeah, for the people outside, maybe you can do some… maybe tutorial or something? No no no, its not a tutorial- maybe, the message, you can, you can deliver the message for us to be more um, growing up, our self-esteem, how to behave and how to educate ourselves- that’s, that’s important. Through YouTube, Instagram or anything, that’s the circle. Yeah. So that’s, maybe that’s the first thing that you can do.
Georgie Williams, voiceover: An interesting aspect of what June has to say here is that for him and for others, there is a period of growing pains when an individual first discovers their gender identity or sexuality. Characterising this self-discovery as something that unearths something ‘wild’ demonstrates the underlying taboo that can take a long time to unlearn. Internalised homophobia, transphobia and queerphobia can so often lead queer individuals to experience distress, frustration or even act self-destructively or ‘recklessly’ as June put it. The sense of isolation and of freakishness can lead queer individuals to struggle with their self-esteem and self worth as a consequence, and in articulating this, June makes it even more clear how beneficial it is for young queer people to have access to informative resources and be able to find their community, if only to know that they are not alone in their experiences.
Alfi, our final interviewee on our rainy night in Yogyakarta, is an openly nonbinary trans man and is an active member of a local LGBT organisation, specialising his work in disability issues. He is currently studying law.
Alfi, in interview: Being an LGBTIQ+ [person] in Indonesia is hard for me. Moreover, if you identify yourself as a nonbinary trans man. Because uh, people around me is mostly cis, heterosexual, they accuse me for not being manly- not manly enough, they said, because I didn’t take HRT and yet I’m having a female voice and then, I’m an introvert person and I’m a typical indoor person so when I don’t do bodybuilding or other activities they say I’m not manly enough [laughs]. Then I discover the term of nonbinary, so I identify myself as a nonbinary trans man just because I don’t want to adopt the heteronormativity rules by being a man that’s constructed by patriarchy- because I think that trans men, sometimes they like, adopt heteronormative rules, and I don’t want to be that kind of person.
Georgie Williams, voiceover: For clarification, when Alfi talks about HRT, he is talking about hormone replacement therapy. For those of you who have read the /Queer article on bioessentialism in trans circles, you will be aware that there is often an issue with transgender individuals being expected to undergo or even want to undergo hormone replacement therapy or gender affirming surgeries to be considered valid in their trans identity. However, it is important to stress that neither of these treatments are necessary prerequisites for transness. Many people undergo these treatments to manage their gender dysphoria, characterised as a disconnect between one’s gender identity and their body. However, not all people experience constant gender dysphoria or any dysphoria at all, since extraneous factors such as cultural norms surrounding the gendering of human anatomy and one’s perception of their body all influence gender dysphoria. Some may want HRT or gender affirming surgeries, but be unable to financially afford them or not have access to safe healthcare, or a supportive environment. Others may simply not need them. It is important, when we think about trans identities, to disavow the notion that all trans individuals are uncomfortable with their bodies.
Alfi, in interview: Since I was a kid, when I was about five years old I already have a crush with women and I don’t think feeling of me being different because I just… I think it’s normal I have a crush with her and then I was sure that I’m a man. I grew up in an arabit family, we are so strict and live our religion so conventionally but I never like, contradict uh, not my religion because, I’m agnostic now, but my parents raised me in muslim society with my, what I feel as uh, at that time, the trans man is not familiar yet, so I label as a lesbian [laughs] but I’m not [comfortable] with that kind of thing because I think I’m a man, I identity as a man not lesbian masculine. Until the trans movement is being grow in like 2015, then I’m more like, confident to say that I’m a trans man, but I don’t want to take HRT in Indonesia because I don’t believe medical officer in Indonesia. What else...
My father passed away 10 years ago and then my mother passed away like, 5 years ago and I didn’t… close with my one and only older brother, and I never had chance to come out to either of my parents because at that time I just like… appreciate them for taking care of me but after they are both pass away, I didn’t care anymore, I came out to like everyone in my extended family and everyone in here, in Jogja, knows me as a trans man. Oh yeah, previously I worked in NGO, focused in LGBT and women health’s issues, but after 2015 I resigned because they’re not giving me a proper wage because I’m only a high school graduate at that time and, yeah [laughs]
Georgie Williams, voiceover: Oh my god.
Alfi, in interview: So, but after I resigned my job I get confused- did someone like me with my gender identity can easily have my job? How do people like me can have a job? I didn’t think before I resigned and then I get confused but then, I don’t know, suddenly… I think working as a freelance is quite good for me because I can feel that I can appreciate myself as a human, as a whole person, so from like 2000… uh, 15, until now as a freelance notetaker, it’s like uh… liberating myself.
Georgie Williams, in interview: That’s wonderful, thank you so very much for sharing that Alfi, especially the experience of being a nonbinary trans man, because it’s a story that’s so rarely brought onto a major platform, and so i really appreciate you being so open about it. So to go onto our next question- based on your experiences and the perspectives that you have had the opportunity to learn about and be exposed to, what do you feel that individuals outside of the LGBTQ+ community of Indonesia, what can they do to support matters here in this country and your social movements and causes?
Alfi, in interview: I think what the other community outside of the community, if they want to help us… I think so far, I think not a lot because when… I’m doing the advocacy for the NGO, they are only helping us when there is a big case in Indonesia so I think there’s not a lot that they did for me, for us in the movement, actually. But here in Yogyakarta, luckily I have my close support system, I have friends- one of my friends so close to me is just like my own older sister, and then I have two more friends that we always encourage me so I feel like I’m not alone. And also when Vanya told me about your podcast… I’m very [interested] and then, uh, I tried to get the information of that, and I kept very interested to um, i’m here and… [laughs] and I think what you do is a way that someone from outside that can help me cause, you help us like spread the message, our message here that we are not alone and can share about our experience and for me, that’s a lot.
Georgie Williams, in interview: Thank you so very much and thank you for your kind words as well, I really appreciate it.
Georgie Williams, voiceover: Even in the West, the phrase “nonbinary trans man” tends to raise questions. People often believe that, as being nonbinary means you do not belong within a binary gender, a person cannot be nonbinary and also be a man or a woman. It is important to note that nonbinary identities are those that do not exist exclusively as masculine or feminine at all times- so in Alfi’s case, it makes sense that he is both nonbinary and a trans man, having been assigned female at birth but identifying as a man- just not the socially normative, cisgender conception of what maleness is. As well as the terms ‘non binary trans man or woman’ you may also hear of transmasculine and transfeminine people, which describe individuals who have transitioned towards masculinity or femininity, but do not, in their case, identify with the terms man or woman. These identities are not defined by choice of clothing, haircut, mannerism or performance of gendered stereotypes- we are talking about gender identity, and not visual aesthetics or social roles. It is important to not conflate these terms.
What I found reassuring in both June & Alfi’s stories is how both of them had benefited from accessing online resources. If you grew up in the age of the internet as I did, you’ll likely have felt discouraged by having your efforts to address social issues via the internet discredited as “slacktivism”. This term is often used to describe the use of virtual platforms to share information and discussions surrounding matters related to human rights and social awareness- the implication being that this form of activism is lazy and disengaged. However, given what these two men have had to say about the impact of online resources on their ability to articulate their sense of identity, perhaps the term ‘slacktivism’ becomes a misnomer in the context of virtual social spaces. It is with concerted effort that many of us attempt to disseminate resources and encourage informative and insightful LGBTQ+ discourse, and I speak as part of my community when i say that as an adolescent, social media and blogging platforms equipped me with not only the language I needed to put words to my feelings and experiences, but also understand that, if there was a word for what I was, I was far from alone. For those of us putting our stories out there, it is encouraging to know that, for someone on the other side of the world, your act of vulnerability may be how they come to better understand themselves. There is a fair chance that, as June and Alfi were impacted by testimonies of others on virtual platforms, there will be listeners of this podcast who are, in turn, changed forever by having had the good fortune to hear these men’s stories.
Given the insightful conversations we have had with Ai, Ferdi, June and Alfi, it is apparent that the diversity of Indonesia’s LGBTQ+ community has fallen under the radar- at least from the perspective of the West. It is not unusual for the modernity of countries in the global south to come under scrutiny, and queerness is so often perceived to be a facet of modernity- not only by Westerners, but by conservative leaning citizens of countries like Indonesia. Platforming the experiences of the LGBTQ+ community of Indonesia is about more than sharing these important stories- it is about acknowledging the widespread existence of what the west would call ‘queerness’.
Queerness is indigenous. So much of that queer history, all around the globe, has been lost- and so much of it was lost under colonialism. Indonesia is a prime example of this- it was under Dutch colonial rule that the polisi susila or ‘morality police’ were formed, back in the 1930s when Dutch power in the country appeared threatened by the Second World War. This was explored in Rinaldi Ridwan & Joyce Wu’s paper, ‘Being young and LGBT, what could be worse?’ Analysis of youth LGBT activism in Indonesia: challenges and ways forward’. Ridwan & Wu state in their paper that large-scale hunts took place, arresting homosexual men who were accused of having had sex with underage boys. For context, an underage individual was anyone younger than 21 years old. Historian Marieke Bloembergen also has also stated that this supposed moral cleansing was implemented in order for a decreasingly authoritative Dutch colonial government to reassert their power. Bloembergen has suggested that this may have fed into the enduring interest many Indonesians have in sexual cleanliness, with homosexuality or LGBTQ+ identities being considered amoral and, by extension, unclean.
We cannot ascertain what contemporary Indonesian attitudes towards LGBTQ+ identities would be, if Dutch colonialism had not proliferated and normalised queerphobia in the early 20th Century. We can, of course, see how this sentiment has led to more conservative Indonesians accusing queer Indonesians of having been indoctrinated into their queerness by external, predominantly Western influences. If anything is clear from June & Alfi’s stories, it is that this causal framework for their queerness is a poor fit. Instead, it appears that having access to external resources allowed June & Alfi to articulate their identities and experiences. This was not a matter of indoctrination, but the acquisition of language. Transness is no more an import than being gay or lesbian, and stories like June & Alfi’s demonstrate that gender identity variance exists within contemporary Indonesian society, much like Shinta Ratri’s story of being Waria did. But, this is by no means the extent of gender identity variance in Indonesia and, in next month’s final episode on Indonesian culture, we will be sharing a very important interview with a Buginese citizen- a native of one of the largest ethnic groups on the island of Sulawesi, Indonesia. Buginese culture, which comprises 6 million citizens and operates under a five-gender, three-sex social system, is living and enduring proof that a gender binary has never been innate or fundamental to the human experience. Join us next time for our final chapter in the Southern Hemisphere- The Bugis of Indonesia.
This episode of the /Queer Podcast was edited by Sam Clay and scripted and produced by me, Georgie Williams. A very special thanks to June, Alfi, Vania and Royce for their contributions. A special thanks to my Patreon subscribers who have now supported this season of /Queer past it’s halfway point- this project grows by the day and your involvement means so very much. If you’re not a Patreon and you want to do your bit to ensure these stories continue to be heard around the world, you can visit the /Queer Patreon at https://patreon.com/slashqueer. That’s S-L-A-S-H Queer. The link is also available on our Facebook, Instagram and Twitter pages. Also, following popular demand we have just released our first set of /Queer merch, with the /Queer logo available in various pride flag colours across t shirts, mugs, face masks and more. You can check us out at https://slashqueer.threadless.com/ and, on top of all that, if you fancy throwing us a few pennies as a one off donation you can donate to the /Queer research project at https://ko-fi.com/slashqueer- that’s ko hyphen fi.com, forward slash, slashqueer. However you support us, through donations or just sharing these episodes around, is more important than you could possibly know.
This episode was recorded on location in Yogyakarta, Indonesia. Music in this episode was composed by Kevin MacLeod. If you enjoyed this episode or have any feedback, please get in touch on Instagram or Twitter at @SlashQueer or email us at slashqueer@outlook.com. In spite of all that we face in these uncertain times, remember to stay kind, stay radical and stay queer.