homosexuality and islam: Bridging the divide

- Episode 23- Transcript

Georgie Williams, voiceover: Trigger warnings for this episode include the discussion of sexual assault and rape, homophobia, suicidality, mental illness and religious persecution. Please proceed with caution.

“Doomed by God is who does what Lot’s people did.”

The story of Sodom and Gomorrah is one so well known in the public consciousness that you have likely come across it even if you are not Christian or Muslim. This story, depicting two cities destroyed by God for their moral trespasses, can be found in both the Bible and the Qur’an- and has for many, many centuries been cited as grounds for the persecution of sexuality diverse individuals. As a consequence, sexually diverse Christians and Muslims have been ostracised, brutalised and even killed for the supposedly incommensurable nature of their religious and sexual identities. Although research in many parts of Europe, the UK and USA has turned its focus to the experiences and challenges of gender and sexuality diverse Christians, comparatively very little has been done within the sphere of human rights research to document and investigate the experiences of LGBTQ+ Muslims. But how does one marry Islamic faith with sexual diversity? And how has the Qur’an been used, or misused, to propagate homophobic beliefs? Here in Cape Town, South Africa we bring these questions to the first openly queer Imam and confront the challenges that lie in bridging the divide between homosexuality and the practising of Islam. Welcome to Episode 23 of /Queer. You’re here with me, your host, Georgie Williams.

Following on from our brief stopover in Turkey, our next port of call took us farther south than any venture before in the history of the /Queer project- to the southernmost edge of Africa, in Cape Town. Arriving here with three months ahead of us, our intentions were to document matters of gender and sexuality in the context of South African culture and, eventually, the culture of Lesotho- a country landlocked by surrounding South Africa. All the way back in Episode 1 of this project, we talked a little bit about the importance of positionality- of our own individual perspectives and lived experiences feeding into the work that we do, creating unique lenses and, at times, creating biases. I was incredibly aware that in creating the following episodes in South Africa, my own perspectives and potential biases would be present. I am half South African- my birth mother was born in Glasgow, Scotland but my father was born in Benoni, a small town just east of Johannesburg, in Gauteng province. Having left in the 1990s, my father put effort into making sure I understood much of the sociocultural climate of South Africa when I was young, but my experiences of South African culture are limited- both in my growing up outside of this country and also in my whiteness. The limitations of my lens will almost certainly affect my interpretation of interview content in our current episode, having grown up far away from any real-life experience of Islamic culture. I have tried in earnest to defer to reputable research and the work of muslim scholars to inform my analysis, as well as employing the guidance of colleagues who have personal and professional experience regarding islamic practices and values. But as always, I encourage listeners to consider how, in spite of my best efforts, my perspectives and unconscious biases may inform the analysis I present.

I knew before my arrival that Cape Town boasted a diverse community, particularly in the context of religion. Although muslims account for only 1-2% of South Africa’s population, they account for around 5-10% of Cape Town’s population. I also knew in advance who I wanted to talk to about sexuality and Islam, after reading an article about his work in The Guardian newspaper. But I wanted to conduct my own interview and allow him to tell the story of his work in his own voice. Imam Muhsin Hendricks is known globally as the first openly queer Imam. At great risk to his life and safety, he came out publicly in 1996. Imam Hendricks started his important work, hosting events for LGBTQ+ Muslims back in 1998, and given his extensive experience I believed he may be one of the most important voices in the conversation surrounding how attitudes towards gender and sexuality diversity have changed both for Muslims in South Africa and around the world over the past 25 years.

Imam Hendricks, in interview: So I'm Imam Muhsin Hendricks. I'm born and bred in Cape Town. Often people think that I'm Pakistani, but it's only because I studied there for so many years and I'm currently the executive director of the Al-Ghurbaah Foundation and I'm also the Imam of the mosque that is attached to the organization. So I think there's a couple of key players that were involved in or instrumental in the change that we can see over the last 30 years. I only work within a particular sector, which is, you know, Islam, sexual orientation and gender identity. So working very much in a religious bubble sometimes, but certainly we have made some contribution towards the status quo and I think the kind of contribution that we've made was instrumental in the passing of the Civil Union bill in 2006. I am also now a marriage officer. So it is a service that we could provide to the LGBTIQ community even though not everybody wants to get married. But to know that that service is actually available was a great achievement for us. And I think if I gauge over the last 30 years the fact that we have more youth coming out from the age of 15/16 already, where my age people came out in the late thirties and that's because there's so much of information available now on the Internet and so on, and many more safe spaces that were created for the LGBTI community that it makes it easier for them to just access these organizations and the support that they need.

And like I said, it's not just our organization that contributed towards it, but organizations like Triangle Project, Inclusive and Affirming Ministries and so on, and the fact that we can work together in a network kind of also provides that alternative voice that sometimes has to be heard in the din and the noise of orthodoxy.

Georgie Williams, voiceover: Although Imam Hendricks was right in acknowledging the impact of home-grown South African organisations changing the climate around gender and sexuality diversity, the power of the individual in these movements is often understated. Imam Hendricks himself represents something significant for young, queer Muslims, and this is a matter upon which he was very comfortable to elaborate.

Imam Hendricks, in interview: I think also what's important maybe for me to mention is my role as an openly queer Imam. So I'm not just an openly queer Muslim, but I'm an openly queer Imam. And for a lot of youngsters to see that that can be a role model for them, just knowing that I exist is hope for them that you can be queer and Muslim at the same time.

Georgie Williams, voiceover: Imam Hendricks also had a lot to say about how the Qur'an’s teachings on sexuality are interpreted and often misinterpreted.

Imam Hendricks, in interview: So firstly I would say that in my experience, I don't think that God is homophobic or that the Quran is homophobic, but that perhaps our interpretation of it becomes homophobic. And often I say that the Quran is the divine word of God. We cannot change it. But when there's human agency involved in the interpretation of it, it change[s] in many different ways. Unfortunately, the patriarchy has had an overwhelming influence in how we understand Islam today and how we understand the position of women and the position of the LGBTI people in Islam. So after my 18 years of research I came to realize that the entire story of Sodom and Gomorrah that's in the Quran, that is spread over ten different chapters, amounting to about 96 verses- that only four of those verses talks about male to male sexual interaction. And in the three incidences that happened, it was all constructed homosexuality. Now, I often have to unpack what ‘constructed homosexuality’ means. It just means that the people who are engaging in homosexual acts, they do not necessarily identify or have a sexual-homosexual orientation, but that it's constructed either around polytheism, it's constructed around power. So, for example, if you look in prisons where men have sex with other men, they don't necessarily identify. So there's some form of injustice that happens within that equation. And in all three of these incidences, and if I can just quickly mention it to you, the one is where men were molested on the highway. This was the King's highway that was passing through the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. So these cities became stopovers, and these people became sort of arrogant and defying the law of Abraham, which is the law of hospitality that you need to give foreigners and wayfarers space or place to stay overnight. And they got kind of tired of this practice, and so they started robbing the caravans of their merchandise and then molesting the men and sending them off naked into the desert, as the Bible explains to us. So that was clearly ‘homosexual constructed’.

And then the second incident was where one of the major gods that were worshipped in Sodom was Ishtar. And Ishtar was the goddess of love and fertility and victory and war and so on. And so besides the temple prostitution that happened in the temple of Ishtar, men also believe that if they have sex with one another, more sperm is being produced. And if they offer their fertility to Ishtar, Ishtar will then in turn make their lands fertile. So it was a polytheistic kind of a belief. And so the practice of homosexuality became institutionalised in the temple of Sodom and Gomorrah. So to an extent where some people who come to worship at the temple were forced into having to participate in these orgies.

Then the third incident was the cherry on top, where the two angels comes to Lot, who's the prophet as guests. And Lot kind of shielding them from the inmates of Sodom. And they're coming to hear that Lot is entertaining guests. And so the whole community comes rushing to Lot's house, demanding that he should give up these guests. And the Quran use specific words like khaziya, fabaha and rawadu, indicating that they wanted to molest these men.

So in all three of these places, it's got nothing to do with sexual orientation, right? So an innocent person who says that I innately feel attracted to the same sex, it's not something that I have chosen and it's not something that I can also pop a pill and it'll go away tomorrow. You cannot use that story as a blanket condemnation for an innocent person like that. Now, unfortunately, the fiqh or the Islamic jurisprudence hasn't covered that aspect of our human existence, right? It was always just focusing on the constructed homosexuality and people sort of mixing the two, saying that, oh, it's talking about homosexual. So everybody who's homosexual is sort of covered under that.

So my research is basically saying, look, let's open that window and admit that maybe we have a shortage in our understanding of this issue and that it needs to be teased out a little bit more and that the Fiqh or the Islamic jurisprudence needs to expand to be inclusive instead of exclusive. So that's really where I'm coming from.

Georgie Williams, voiceover: Of course, very few Imams approach the subject of gender and sexuality the way Imam Hendricks does. As I discussed the Imam’s work with him, I had to ask how he felt about the responsibility Imams had to their community in interpreting and proliferating the word of the Qur’an accurately, as someone who has dedicated their career to confronting its misinterpretation. Imam Hendricks had much to say about this matter, as well as how he believes the spiritual elements of islamic teachings on sexuality can be incorporated into the experiences of sexuality diverse muslims.

Imam Hendricks, in interview: So then the other thing that is important to mention is that often when people like myself, when we stand up for our right or claiming our identity, our sexual identity, we're often being seen as licentious or immoral. And I think that the values and the boundaries that are set around sexual activity within the Quran, it's still something that I as a gay person also have to adhere to, right? And if you really look at what lies behind these boundaries, what are the values that God wants us to protect? It's things like I mean, now, recently, sexologists will talk about [how] we have to be selective about our sexual partners because of the transference of sexual energy. And sometimes we're feeling depressed and whatever, and we don't know why because we've been sleeping with ten people that have brought us some energy that we don't really need in our lives. So perhaps that was one reason why we shouldn't just go and sleep with everybody. Those kind of values, it's universal. So if it is about protecting those kind of values, then I'm all for it. But to say that a person hasn't got the right to have an intimate relationship with the person that they’re naturally attracted to... some sort of an injustice there that I can't accept and I don't think that it's divinely intended also to be like that.

Georgie Williams, voiceover: The Imam’s spiritual perspective on sexual behaviour and monogamous- or at least sexually committed- practices reflects values present in many organised religions. It also represents notions of civility and moral refinement which juxtapose the supposed immorality or uncivilised practice of polyamory; a more modern term used to describe consensual non-monogamous relationships. Polyamory and the general practice of non-monogamy has often represented conscious opposition to the values of many major organised religions, and the Imam’s internalisation of these values ultimately represents his desire to align his identity with values within his religion which explain his own experiences with sexuality. Cultural anthropologist and queer theorist Gayle Rubin summarised the moral subjectivities of different sexual practices in her seminal text, Thinking Sex, where she presented a sexual value system demonstrating what sexual practices were considered good or bad within the religious, psychiatric or socially popular hierarchies present in predominantly Western society. Within the classifications of bad, unnatural and abnormal, Rubin placed both casual sex and group sex. Rubin argues that sexual behaviours classified as bad, unnatural or abnormal are denied the moral complexity or emotional nuances afforded to supposedly good, normal or natural sex acts. Understanding the Imam’s approach to sexuality means acknowledging that where some of his perspectives are progressive, others are still grounded in ideas about sexual morality which are subjective and ultimately more nuanced than what is presented in the scriptures of the majority of organised religions. Sexual judgement, in all its forms, may draw someone closer to a value system which provides them with comfort and a sense of belonging, but can still stigmatise behaviours such as sexual non-monogamy, which could be argued to be entirely morally neutral when occurring in communicative and consensual contexts.

When I met with the Imam, he had recently travelled to Mombasa, Kenya to provide one of his classes on reconciling faith with sexuality. Imam Hendricks’ coming out drew attention from gender and sexuality diverse muslims around the world and has allowed him to travel extensively to discuss the relationship between religion and gender and sexuality diversity. Given his experience, I had to ask him what his perspective was on the experiences of gender and sexuality diverse muslims outside of South Africa.

Imam Hendricks, in interview: Well, so Mombasa is just one place, but I've travelled to many different parts of the world, Bangladesh, Amsterdam, Pakistan, so I've seen many different experiences of gay people and I think that there might be some differences. And I think in South Africa we're probably more privileged because of our constitution. But when it comes to being queer and Muslim, I think the challenges are pretty much the same for everybody. It's always that question of can I be queer and Muslim? And nobody wants to go to hell. The whole pronunciation is that if you're going to be accepting yourself as queer then automatically you're signing up for hell. And the negative messages around being queer and Muslim at the same time, I think it's just sort of the impetus for raising the mental health issues that so many people are experiencing in all the countries that I've travelled to. So I don't think that just because the only difference is that I'm privileged in South Africa and I have the right to get married and so on. But other than that, the challenges are pretty much the same.

Georgie Williams, voiceover: Hendricks notes the privileges many gender and sexuality diverse South Africans benefit from with regards to their constitution. A lesser-known fact about life in South Africa is that its constitution, promulgated by President Nelson Mandela on December 18th 1996, is one of the most progressive national constitutions in the world. Section Nine outlaws discrimination based on gender, sex and sexual orientation- which was a radical inclusion in the global political arena of the mid-1990s. South Africa also legalised gay marriage in 2006, long before many Western countries including the USA and UK. Legally, LGBTQ+ South Africans have the same rights as non-LGBTQ+ South Africans. But this unfortunately, does not reflect the social freedoms afforded to gender and sexuality diverse citizens of South Africa. Although experiences vary drastically between urban and rural areas, homophobic violence- including incidences of corrective rape, where a victim is raped on the incorrect grounds that it could make them heterosexual- is rife across the country. This mirrors South Africa’s track record regarding violence against women, both of which are matters set against the backdrop of stark socioeconomic inequality across the country. Disparities undoubtedly exist between the legal reassurances of South Africa’s constitution and the stark reality of the lived experiences of many disadvantaged or socially ostracised South Africans, but egalitarian legislation is a fallback that many countries do not have, including numerous other African countries.

Another matter I sought Hendricks’ perspective on was that of emotional wellbeing and community-building, within and outside of organised religion. It would be easy from an atheistic or agnostic perspective to dismiss the importance that religion plays in community building and the sustaining of human connection- that within the fabric of organised religion, for all its dangers and propagation of harm, beneficial community structures can exist. Human connection and interconnection is in many senses an essential prerequisite for psychosocial well-being. The queer community, in itself, provides a similar web of connections- particularly if someone has the good fortune of living in a queerly populated neighbourhood. But for many, religion is the hinge on which connections are made and maintained, and in this lies the quandary; how does one hold onto a sense of faith, with the social benefits it often provides, when many of the practices and doctrines are weaponised against their kind? In conjunction with this matter, our conversation with the Imam segued into a discussion of the impact of that social ostracism- a severing from one’s religious community- on the mental health of gender and sexuality diverse muslims.

Imam Hendricks, in interview: So often you will hear people saying that, oh, the statistics are showing that the mental health in LGBTI community is overwhelming. But why is it overwhelming? It's not because it's inherent in them, but it's because of the stigma and the rejection that they had to suffer all these years. Obviously that will bring upon mental health issues. I think the kind of Islam that I'm practising now and the Islam that I've been brought up with, there's been quite a few changes. I think the Islam that I identify with is in terms of its values that it promotes. And I think that when we look at all the prophets and these are common prophets within the Abrahamic faiths, none of them came with religion. They all came with values. And when they passed on, we sort of organised religion out of those values that they left us with. So I think that if we're talking about an Islam that would work for the 21st centuries is kind of going back to what were these values that these prophets has left us with? And these are the same values that's in the Quran, the same values that's in the Bible, values like peace, justice, compassion and all of that. And so the reason why I have decided to remain Muslim, it's because those values are also entrenched within the rituals. So the rituals kind of help you to nurture those values and vice versa.

Georgie Williams, voiceover: The taboo surrounding LGBTQ+ identifying Muslims remains strong- strong enough that, for this episode, I could not source any statistics on the mental health and welfare of LGBTQ+ Muslims in South Africa. In general, the findings regarding the mental health of gender and sexuality diverse South Africans was disheartening. In a report by Müller, Daskilewicz and the Southern And East African Research Collective on Health, their report based on the surveying of 832 LGBTQ+ identifying participants found that the levels of depression, anxiety, suicidality and substance use were much higher compared to those reported for the general South African population. 57% of participant reported being classified as depressed, with 53% of Black participants and 62% of gender-minority participants reporting this too. This can be compared to estimates of depression in the general South African population ranging between 5% and 37%. 61% of participants in this study also reported suicidal ideation at some point in their lifetime.

Other studies shed a little more light on the experiences of LGBTQ+ Muslims. A paper titled Religion, Spirituality, and LGBTQ Identity Integration by Beagan & Hattie found extensive reports of psychological and emotional harm perpetrated within organised religions towards gender and sexuality diverse individuals. Another paper, titled Identity experience among progressive gay Muslims in North America: A qualitative study within Al-Fatiha by Minwalla et al, looked at the reported experiences of gay men who were part of a US-based internet movement called Al-Fatiha, pushing for the acceptance of gender and sexuality diversity within Muslim communities. In echoing the findings of the previous study regarding harm perpetrated within religious communities, they also acknowledged how, for Muslims, “same-sex attraction does not by definition nullify the cultural imperative for heterosexual marriage”. What this means is that there is still immense pressure faced by gender and sexuality diverse Muslims to follow tradition and marry into a relationship which is heterosexual-presenting. The scarcity of research into these issues is emblematic of the persistent social taboo- but what little there is available paints a distressing and concerning picture of the welfare of LGBTQ+ Muslims.

My final question for the Imam was broad and very much designed to take advantage of his experience working with people within his faith. I wanted to understand what practising Islam as a gay man meant to him, and what advice or guidance he had to offer for gender and sexuality diverse muslims.

Imam Hendricks, in interview: I think it's a beautiful thing that some people might kill me for this, but that Muhammad has come up with for Arabia to kind of save the hostility and the immorality that was so rife at the time. And I think it's a beautiful system for the 21st century and it makes sense to me. So that's why I hold onto it. Yes. And I think my advice for the LGBTI Muslim community specifically is if you are going to try and fit into an orthodox version of Islam, where there are so many rules and regulations that are sometimes mainly just based on classical scholarly opinions, you're going to struggle finding a place within that kind of Islam. So it is important that you do research a lot of these progressive scholars that have sort of re[thought] Islam for the 21st century. And so we're not saying that you're actually discarding Islam, but you're actually just relooking at it and adopting the essence and the values of Islam instead of the dogma and just fixating on the rituals because you need to go to heaven.

At the end of the day, isn't religion just the vehicle towards spirituality? And if your vehicle doesn't take you towards your spirituality, then there's something wrong with the vehicle. So make sure you're on the right vehicle. And I think the right vehicle is to hold on to the values that islam promotes.

Georgie, in interview: That is both very useful and really lovely. Thank you so much.

Imam Hendricks, in interview: You’re welcome.

Georgie Williams, voiceover: There is no denying the at-times cataclysmic extent of the harm propagated in the name of religion, against people of diverse gender, sexual, socioeconomic and racial backgrounds. Many great atrocities throughout history unfolded in the name of a crusade or religious mission, and Islam is not exempt. During our time in Indonesia we talked about the implementation of Sharia Law in Aceh province and how lives had been taken in Aceh in the name of policing morality- and that this morality policing was grounded in an extreme and highly rigid interpretation of Islamic scripture. Even during Apartheid, which will be discussed in more depth in our next episode, many large South African denominations of Christianity threw their weight behind this state-sanctioned system of extreme racial inequality and violence. Religion and the fight for equality have found themselves at loggerheads throughout the course of human history.

But it would be myopic to attempt to envisage a world where the influence of religion does not exist, especially on a social and cultural level. Inextricable from the structures of societies throughout the world, there would be nothing actionable in the suggestion that gender and sexuality diverse individuals facing a conflict of faith and identity could simply leave their religious communities behind. There is a great difference between devout belief in a religious text and a desire to hold onto the family, friends, loved ones a person may lose or become distanced from in removing themselves from a religious community- and in some places, especially more rural and isolated locations, that kind of severing of ties can be financially and psychologically devastating. It should not be a prerequisite for gender and sexuality diverse people to tear themselves from many, sometimes all of the people in their lives, in order to be recognised and respected for their identities. Speaking as a white atheist from a suburban community, the teachings of Imam Hendricks are not for me and were not designed for people such as myself. But that’s because I am fortunate enough to not need them- although I am not unfamiliar to losing loved ones based on my gender and sexuality. I sincerely believe that in a world where religion can be so deeply interwoven into all that is familiar and secure for many people, his work can be life-saving. Organised religions can cause incredible harm- but the people raised inside them lead complex lives and deserve to find peace in their identity without having to leave behind a fundamental aspect of their upbringing and community. Beyond his research, what the Imam represents is a way to live, as a queer person and as a muslim- without conflict, without guilt and without shame.

This episode of the /Queer Podcast was edited by Sam Clay, transcribed by Bronya Smith, co-scripted by myself and Taha Atayist and produced and hosted as always by me, Georgie Williams. Many thanks to the incredible Imam Muhsin Hendricks for his invaluable contributions to this episode, and thanks also to Kamala Hussain for her assistance with translation and transcription.

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This episode was recorded on location in Cape Town, South Africa. Music in this episode was composed by our resident audio king, Sam Clay. If you enjoyed this episode or have any feedback, please get in touch on Instagram or Twitter at @SlashQueer or email us at info@slashqueer.com. Until we have your company once more- stay kind, stay radical and stay queer.