Gay Derry: Pride on the irish border

- Episode 18- Transcript

Georgie Williams, voiceover: Trigger warning for this episode include the discussion of violence and murder. Please proceed with caution.

What do you know about the city of Derry? Perched upon the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, Derry’s history is one both fraught with political conflict and rich with culture. If you were to isolate one place on the island of Ireland where the sociopolitical landscape is the most complex, Derry would likely be at the top of your list. 

From great tensions and strife emerges great change. In 1993, the Foyle Pride Festival was established in Derry- a mere 11 years after homosexual acts had been decriminalised in Northern Ireland. 17 years later, in 2010, the organisers of this festival stated that this was the first year ever when they felt they had the numbers to orchestrate a gay pride parade. So how do you build a queer community up from invisibility? And how did Derry succeed in establishing one of the most important and politically-conscious gay pride parades in Europe?

For our final episode of Season One, join us in Derry as we learn about what the gay rights movement of this city looked like and what Derry represents for an inclusive Ireland. Welcome to Episode 18 of /Queer. You’re here with me, your host, Georgie Williams. 

Derry is a village. Or, that’s the impression it gives off if you meet anyone who grew up in this particular Irish city. If you know two people from Derry you can bet a fair bit of money on them knowing each other- and like with all our best interviews, the conversation we’re spotlighting in this episode is one born from chatting with someone, who knows someone, who knows someone with a story to tell. Through serendipity I once again found myself making friends with a former resident of Derry who knew someone whose contributions to the LGBTQ+ community were both vast and overlooked. I’ll let our guest introduce himself.

Jim Doherty, in interview: My name is Jim Doherty and I’m active in the LGBTQ+ community in Derry. I’m also involved politically in ‘The Bloody Sunday Justice Campaign’. I come from a working class nationalist area in Derry and I have spent 25 years living and working in London and the experience of before and after are really really really bad, and I’ll explain some more about that today.

Georgie Williams, voiceover: Before we go any further, it is important that we address the political climate of Derry and the event which Jim refers to here, known as Bloody Sunday. Derry’s official name is Londonderry- a name which is both divisive and a sensitive subject for many of the city’s residents. The divide has long been between nationalists and unionists living on the island- nationalists being those who believe Ireland in its entirety should be a self-governed sovereign state, and unionists being those who believe in upholding and maintaining Northern Ireland’s status as a part of the United Kingdom. Great Britain’s colonisation of Ireland has had a severe and detrimental impact on the Irish community- with continuous resistance to British rule dating back to the Anglo-Norman invasion of Ireland in 1169. When Jim speaks of Bloody Sunday, he refers to one of the darkest events in Irish history, a day in 1972 when 26 civil rights protesters were shot in the street by members of the British Parachute Regiment. Fourteen of these civilians, six of whom were only seventeen years old, were killed. This event was fuel for the ongoing conflict with Great Britain and, given how recently in Irish history this event occurred, there are still many people who grew up in Derry who remember Bloody Sunday. We cannot talk about Ireland’s push for sociopolitical and cultural progress and reform without acknowledging this difficult period of Irish history and the profound harm caused by the British Government to Irish citizens in the latter half of the 20th Century. 

Georgie, in interview: So I guess my initial question was going to be about the Gay Rights scene in Derry originally, when you first started your activism work, but actually I kind of also wanted to ask about the Gay Rights scene in the context of the political scene in Derry. Because I feel like the two are inextricably interlinked, so what can you tell me about that kind-of time period?

Jim, in interview: Well, when I was a teenager before I left Ireland, there wasn’t really any visible gay scene, so that would’ve been literally underground. But I did become involved in politics at a very early age because at 9 I saw the first civil rights march in Derry, just by accident because of where I lived, and I saw the reaction of the RUC and because we were quite young we were questioning. And then by the time I was 13 I was a witness to the immediate aftermath of mass murder by the EDA- a pro-British legal paramilitary organisation. And so by the time I was like fourteen I was involved in the youth wing of Sinn Féin which was the political wing of the Irish republican army, and so my focus was on the national question and LGBT stuff wasn’t really in the mix at the time. Although later on I would meet people who were gay in the movement, but the first time I ever saw the word ‘gay’ in the context of Irish political stuff was in Bernadette Devlin’s ‘The Price of my Soul’ when she just mentioned briefly there was a need for gay rights as well as all the other rights the people were demanding- and I found that very encouraging, although it wasn’t in any great detail. So yeah, that was the context before I left Ireland and I left Ireland like a whole generation of other young men and women for the very same reason, and it’s quite funny, in London in the late 70s and 80’s we had not any kind of established group but there was a vast number of gay men and women from Derry who would occasionally meet socially and we became known as the Derry Girls before Channel 4 copped onto the idea. 

Georgie, in interview: That’s amazing! And really interesting as well that were was that kind of mass exodus as well. So I kind of wanted to ask, how did you end up going back and getting involved in the scene in Derry because as far as I’m aware there was kind of a movement to get the first gay rights parade happening in Derry and I mean, when was that and how long did that take to kind of get to the point where things were in motion to allow that to happen?

Jim, in interview: Well this is very interesting because I mean, although things were difficult in my youth I was always very very close to Derry and I would always visit at Christmas and stuff and then when I got more comfortable and had more spending power I would go to Derry frequently for weekends and you know in the, I suppose from the late 90s there was a palpable change and it’s a very progressive place in some ways and I think that’s related to campaigns that were ongoing from during The Troubles period and then just in 2001 I decided I would go back and spend some time with my mother, who was on her own then, who had the extended family but she was living on her own so I thought I’d go and spend some time, so the initial idea was to do 3 years and do another degree while I was here to pass the time. And then I met all these wonderful people and I couldn’t believe the changes. 

And then the first gay parade was um, about 12 years ago this August, and I can’t take any credit for it but I think what was interesting about that first parade was that everyone who organised it was a woman, not all gay women but they were all women. There was opposition to it from every quarter including gay men in the city who were who were in positions, who were working for the rainbow project and paid jobs and stuff, they didn’t think it was the right time or whatever. So, those were more pretty defiant and you know, I did go along to the first parade, I did know the women involved and it was nerve-wracking but it was a very successful day. So the women involved had made the right call, and the parade has been on-going ever since and you know like, I know it sounds like a cliché but it’s bigger and better every year and it’s got a huge political context and content in the week of events. So it’s really quite exciting and it’s quite unique because there is no corporate sponsorship and there’s no kind of liaison with any kind of private companies and we’re very aware of how prides in other places has been taken over by the commercial sector and the political message is lost so, in that sense we’ve made a, we’re quite unique on the island in that sense at this time. 

Georgie Williams, voiceover: Derry’s uniquely non-commercial pride separates it from many pride parades across the Western world. In a time when brand sponsorship is commonplace at these important events, Derry’s approach feels like a preservation of the origins of Pride- as an act of protest finding its roots in the resistance of homophobic, transphobic and queerphobic violence and oppression.

Aside from the fact that this commercialisation detracts from the spirit of pride, it also represents the growing pursuit of what is referred to as the “pink dollar”. This term describes the financial income an organisation can procure from marketing their products or services to the LGBTQ+ community. In Festivals, Space and Sexuality: Gay Pride in Australia, Markwell & Waitt describe a cultural shift in the 1990s towards governments embracing the arts and culture scenes as a mechanism for urban economic policies. They write that “courting the ‘pink dollar’ was one means for local municipal authorities to generate new sources of income at a time of great fiscal strain. This meant that ‘being proud’ and ‘out’ was also about entertainment and pitching cities as ‘gay capitals’ of somewhere.” This cultural shift proliferated through many English speaking countries- and if you attend a large-scale Pride event in many countries in Europe or in the United States, you will no doubt find parade floats adorned with rainbow-coloured corporate logos- corporations who, in many circumstances, do not create or maintain LGBTQ+ safe workplaces or policies for their employees. At best, corporate representation at pride can be mere virtue signalling. At worst it is a distasteful appropriation of a significant event for the sake of attracting LGBTQ+ customers. Derry’s resistance to the capitalist engulfment of LGBTQ+ political values is both remarkable and an example of how our queer culture can both be celebrated and conscientiously preserved.

Georgie Williams, in interview: I’m pleased that you’ve mentioned the co-opting of Pride as this very capitalist event in a way that actually can make you feel a little bit disillusioned because ultimately these people don’t tend to have our best interests at heart, these corporations. And I think there needs to be spaces that are, you know, Pride parades and events that are organised where it’s not about brand awareness it’s actually about the people that belong to that community. 

Jim, in interview: Absolutely, and that’s what we’re kind-of known for. And I notice every year that it’s more and more interest from that aspect of the programme, and so we’ve had people come in from Dublin Pride who question quite often why we’re not taking advantage of what one guy referred to as ‘corporate philanthropy’ which was how he put it because he had been working with Facebook in Dublin and thought that was ok, but that’s not ok from the position that the Foyle Pride committee have adopted over the years. 

Georgie, in interview: Yeah and I’m glad that people pushing back against that as well, that’s such a positive to hear but I guess I kind of wanted to ask then, with regards to that first parade, it seems like people are really on board with making that happen now but what was the immediate aftermath? I know you mentioned there was a push-back to it happening in the first-place but how was it received in the end?

Jim, in interview: It was received incredibly well, and I think that’s again related to our recent past, before I went to London, being gay, It was a very secretive… like a big, solitary, lonely place to be and then it took a long time for change to happen, but when it started, it then accelerated really quickly. And so by the time the first parade took place I think, probably everyone in the city knew someone who was gay or lesbian or trans, or whatever, because it’s more spoken about. And when it’s more spoken about, then it becomes less of a taboo, because if you know someone in your own family, then it’s a whole different dynamic and what I found in the first parade was when we went through the city centre… the reception was unbelievable and it was like, little old ladies out doing their shopping and they weren’t out on the streets to see a parade they just happened to be doing their shopping, and happened to experience it in passing, but the positivity was unbelievable and I think that’s because they all probably know someone in our community and they can understand we felt, more that we’re just ordinary, decent people who deserve, ordinary, decent lives. 

Georgie, in interview: That’s so wonderful to hear and I feel positive about this and I’m hoping that I’m right in asking, did this have a positive impact in other parts of Ireland? Did you feel like it had like a knock-on effect in other communities?

Jim, in interview: Yes, it definitely has, because Omagh had it’s first pride last year, and they worked very closely with us you know, looking for advice and support. I wasn’t at ??? myself but a lot of my colleagues in the community were there including some of the founding members of pride and some of them organised the first pride here. We also had the first pride in Mid Ulster which is an electoral contingency and the county town with the Cookstown, they’ve also had their first and second parades, and there’s talk of one in Fermanagh next year so it’s definitely had a knock-on effect. But the um.. it’s become a really exciting week in Derry, I mean you know there’s you know the response to events and to the parade itself, are quite astounding really, so there’s a knock-on effect for sure, yeah.

Georgie, in interview: I’m so relieved to hear that, because I think sometimes… and I see this particularly in countries in eastern Europe, at the moment who, some of them are having their first pride parades… and the push-back is intense. And you don’t necessarily see that same proliferation because there’s a lot of fear, there’s a lot of anxiety about what the impact is. But do you feel like, is it a case of where Ireland is politically at this stage, that these things are being well-received? Or do you think…

Jim, in interview: Well, I must clarify something, the Foyle pride parade is very very well received, very well received, at the starting point I mean literally at the train station where we leave, there is always a protest, a counter-protest, against the parade, that are organised by the Free Presbyterian Church. It’s a small number of people, but they’re always there. But apart from that, there is no other kind-of, opposition. None, whatsoever. None in the political structures of Derry, not even from the DUP who tolerate it I suppose, but the push-back in Cookstown was much more severe. And that would be a more conservative… you know, I would liken it to Bible-bound America, a lot of fundamentalist, a lot of preaching, and you know even the make-up of the Pride Committee, in Mid Ulster, it’s very very different than the make-up of people organising in Derry and you know, they come from… I mean on the committee in Mid Ulster there was a former British solider who served in Ireland during The Troubles, there’s uh a very vocal, interested man who’s also a member of the Orange Order, which is an anti-gay, anti-Catholic, anti-woman organisation. So, he feels comfortable wearing both hats. But the push-back against him and his committee nevertheless was pretty immense. And you know it was with some difficulty that they actually got on the streets and completed the parade, and it was also Covid restrictions, so I suppose we’re not really able to measure it until the next one or the one after. In Omagh there was opposition not as severe but there was a very visible kind of demonstration on the streets, not just Free Presbyterians but people from the Catholic-right like, holding rosary beads over people attending the parade and stuff like that. So it’s not… we’ve had a knock-on effect, but it’s not as straight-forward in those areas as it has been in Derry which is I suppose a bigger urban area and has more… has a history of radical kind-of left-wing, political thinking. 

Georgie, in interview: and do you feel like the Church plays into how the gay rights movement has been received? Because I feel like that’s somewhat unavoidable but to the extent to which, I’m not really certain.

Jim, in interview: Well, I mean, in the past certainly, but again, today again it would be a geographical thing. I would say that the Church has absolutely no impact at all in urban centres like Derry or Belfast, but there definitely is a much bigger influence in those smaller, rural areas that I’ve referred to so, yeah, I suppose organised religion has more kind of power in those places. Although it is weakening, and I can see that the gay rights movements in places like Cookstown and Omagh will continue and will go from strength to strength in opposition to that kind of nonsense. 

Georgie, in interview: That’s fantastic to hear. And actually leads on really well to my final question to you, which is do you have any advice for anyone trying to get things of the ground be it like a gay pride march or a similar kind of social justice project, I mean, do you have any wisdom to impart in that regard? 

Jim, in interview: Oh I don’t know, I think personalities are really important and I think… I mean, I’m not claiming that Foyle Pride happened by accident, I think it was in the minds of the women who are organised the first one for some time and it’s just a matter of talking about it, being strategic and then organising! I think that if you feel strongly enough, whatever the issue is, you know, it need not be related to this community it could be racism, it could be violence against women, it could be you know, to do with immigration and the exploitation of migrant workers- whatever it is, if you’re annoyed enough, that should move you to do something and if there’s, you know, several other people who are thinking in the same way I think that’s all you need to get things organised and off the ground, and once that’s done, that momentum just gathers pace I think. 

Georgie, in interview: Brilliant. Okay well, thank you so much Jim for your time, I really appreciate your insight.

Georgie Williams, voiceover: Over the last three episodes, the picture of a queer Ireland which has been painted for us has been complex and greatly varied. There are pockets of this island where change is met with tension and resistance- where religion and politics, geography and cultural values have all influenced the trajectory of queer liberation in Ireland. But what Jim made clear in our conversation is that where change is happening, it happens because of the tireless work of citizens who care for the place where they live. This is a theme which has emerged in so many of our episodes but feels so significant in this one, in this final conversation on our last leg of this adventure around the globe. People wanted to celebrate the queer community but, above all else, they wanted to celebrate the queer community which belongs to Derry. Visibility, solidarity and social progress all emerge from the same chrysalis- compassion for the people around you. Perhaps that is one of the things that makes Derry so special- it’s the residents of this city who want to nurture the space they have and create a haven where people, Irish people, can be their most authentic and honest selves- especially after a period of great struggle and conflict. What a joy, to see pride celebrated in Derry- and become an example of queer progress in Europe and beyond. 

I want to take a moment as we wrap this final episode of Season One to thank you all for joining me on this journey. In October of 2019, I found myself at an impasse in my life, where progress in the direction I desired- through higher academia- felt impossible. It was no easy decision to defer my PhD and pack a bag for a trip into the unknown- having never even left Europe before this venture. Going on the road and giving up all I knew to record these stories, learn these histories and share them with you all is the biggest risk I have ever taken with my life. I hoped for a few curious listeners. Now, over two years since we started, this project boasts a listener-base spanning 124 countries, a team of 7 dedicated researchers, audio editors, transcribers and translators, and a place in the hallowed Kinsey Institute Archives- where these stories, in the voices of those who knew them best and most intimately, will live forever.

Our team has ambitious plans to go on the road again in late 2022- we will be travelling through mainland Europe to record the histories of gender and sexuality variance through countries across the continent, going straight to the heart of communities to offer our platform to them. Our intention, as always, is to amplify the voices of local experts and those whose lived experience is a window into a world not known by those outside- applying ethical and conscientious principles to ensure stories are recorded and, where necessary, translated with sensitivity and cultural awareness. Since Season One ate all £9000 of my doctoral studies savings, we will be posting a crowdfunding page on our social media platforms soon. If these stories have meant something to you- if they have taught you something new or made you feel less alone in this complex and diverse world, please consider donating to the project. Every penny will be a meal in the mouths of our researchers on the road and a bus ticket to where our guest speakers can be found. It would mean the world to us to be able to continue sharing these stories with you.

A final thank you, once again, to all of you. This project is the dream I never thought I would achieve. These histories belong to all of us- and I am grateful for you giving them your time and attention. I hope to bring more to you all at the end of 2022. 

This episode of the /Queer Podcast was edited by Sam Clay, transcribed by Bronya Smith, co-scripted and produced by myself and Matt Thompson and hosted as always by me, Georgie Williams. A very special thanks to Jim Doherty for his wonderful contributions to this episode. Thanks also to our loyal Patreon subscribers- every penny counts when making a project like this, and your support means so much. If you’re not a patron and want to support the podcast, you can find the /Queer Patreon at patreon.com/slashqueer. That’s S-L-A-S-H Queer. The link is also available on our Facebook, Instagram and Twitter pages. We are still selling all our /Queer merchandise on Threadless and are still accepting donations via Ko-fi and you can find the links to both in the description for this episode. Finally, a thank you as usual goes to you, our listeners. Without you, there would be no /Queer.

This episode was recorded virtually between Derry and London. Music in this episode was composed by our resident audio king, Sam Clay. If you enjoyed this episode or have any feedback, please get in touch on Instagram or Twitter at @SlashQueer or email us at slashqueer@outlook.com. Until we meet again- stay kind, stay radical and stay queer.