Building a queer ireland, pt.1
- Episode 16- Transcript
Georgie Williams, voiceover: Trigger warnings for this episode include the discussion of homophobic violence and murder. Please proceed with caution.
The queer histories of colonised countries are so often swept under the rug. Ireland is no exception.
“Prior to formal Irish independence in 1922, sexuality in Ireland was governed by the UK-wide laws emitted from the Parliament of the United Kingdom, such as the Offences Against the Person Act 1861. These laws were automatically inherited by the new Irish Free State.”
This short paragraph accounts for 44 of only 706 words on LGBT history in Ireland on Wikipedia- and sums up a long-standing issue with Irish history in general; it has, more often than not, been swept under the cultural rug of British rule.
If Irish queer culture is unfamiliar to you, our next set of episodes are designed to bring you up to speed. Talking with civil rights trailblazers and LGBTQ+ citizens alike, join us for the final leg of this season through the country of Ireland. Welcome to Episode 16 of /Queer. You’re here with me, your host, Georgie Williams.
What springs to mind when you think of Irish culture? Depending on where in the world you hail from, you may be familiar with some cultural facets over others. Ireland spills over with globally recognised contributors to the arts, particularly literature, and within this country- which is geopolitically divided into Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland- there is a complex intermingling of western customs and indigenous culture present.
Over the coming episodes we will of course address the influence of British colonialism on Ireland and the importance of applying a decolonial lens- but that is not the focus of this first episode. The intention of these episodes is to flesh out the queer history of a country which, in your mind, is held separate from the United Kingdom. But as with previous episodes, particularly those in Indonesia, colonialism is consistent in the part it plays in encouraging queerphobic sentiments and social norms.
So what is Irish queer history? There are moments which do stand out- the decriminalisation of homosexuality in 1993, the legalisation of gay marriage in 2015, the passing of the gender recognition act in the same year- but these highlights don’t give us a view of the underbelly of Irish queer culture- or how it came to fruition. There was one person that, for the longest time, I had wanted to ask about what Irish queerness looked like- whose lifetime of work has been integral to the progression and preservation of Irish queer history. For our two part exploration of Queer Ireland, we are talking to Ireland’s Gay Godfather- Tonie Walsh.
Georgie Williams, in interview: So, first and foremost, Tonie, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. If you don’t mind, in your own words, if you could tell us a wee bit about yourself?
Tonie Walsh, in interview: Yes, hi Georgie, I’m Tonie Walsh, I’m a 60 year old gay man living in Antalya, Turkey and I have spent a lifetime involved in activism of some form or another from the age of 17 and onwards. I spent 10 years on the board of the National LGBT Federation during, I suppose it’s infancy. It was found in 1979 and I got involved 6-months after it was founded and was a board member with various responsibilities throughout its early history. Up until after the Hirschfield Centre, which was a community centre that National Gay Federation, as it was then known, had established.
Along the way I ended up co-founding, originating co-founding, GCN, which of course has turned into a phenomenally successful queer magazine- and then in the mid-90’s I re-organised the holdings of the national LGBT federation and they evolved into what’s now known as the Irish Queer Archive of course, which I spoke to you more about.
Most of my activism actually has been mediated through voluntary structures, I have been affiliated to a number of different civil society organisations as mentioned like the national LGBT federation. But a lot of the time my activism has… it’s been non-aligned and it’s… I suppose it pivots through a sense of personal responsibility and for much of the 90’s I actually funded a lot of my activism, my volunteers, through working in the entertainment sector as a DJ and a club promoter.
But I suppose what I should say is that like… I mean, I’m 60 years old, like, I’ve spent the last 40 years being a witness to phenomenal change in Ireland and further afield. Yeah and I actually feel quite privileged that I’ve come out the other side, especially coming out the other side of the AIDS pandemic and I’m still standing. It’s been quite an exciting ride.
Georgie Williams, in interview: There’s a lot to process there! [both laugh] My first takeaway is that I don’t know if there’s anything you haven’t done at this point. I think my second response, obviously, without getting too cloying is gratitude, you’ve obviously spent…I mean longer that I’ve been alive invested in this work and highly engaged. And it is-
Tonie Walsh, in interview: What I’d say to that, by the way, is “once and activist, always an activist”! I never set out to be a professional activist, but I think I refined my attitude to social injustice and to the world I saw around me and my desire to change what I found was problematic, issues in my life and problematic issues in society. I’ve always felt.. a lot of it actually inculcated from family. I always felt the desire to better my world for myself and people around me and you know if you grow up with that and develop that type of attitude, it never leaves you. You can run away from it but it will always follow you [laughs] and it will always find an outlet and hopefully we’ll have time to talk about this more but you know, there’s always something that needs changing and I think as long as we have a voice, and you know this so well as you do it so eloquently, but as long as we have a voice then I feel we’re duty-bound to use that voice, and especially to use it on behalf of others who have yet to find theirs or don’t have a platform for their voices so I think it’s really important, I suppose that’s my way of checking my privilege a little bit, in an indirect way, checking my privilege and we have to. It’s about, if you see something that needs changing then don’t wait for other people, get up, and make it happen. And in doing so I think we become an inspiration to other people and we motivate other people and that I think that really is the recurring dynamic that I see in the … the recurring dynamic that’s formed in the LGBTQ civil rights movement from the get-go. It’s been a small group of people enabling an increasingly large group of people and so-on, and so-on, and so-on. And that group of people renews itself, and renews itself, and renews itself, and inspires, and inspires, and inspires. And hopefully, you know, we bring everything in our wake. It’s not always happened as easy as that but anyway.
Georgie Williams, in interview: You’re right, it does feel sometimes that it is about just proliferation from one person or one group of people and that chain effect. And actually, that does bring me onto my first proper question which is; if we go right back to the source of that proliferation, if we were to go back to Ireland in the 1980’s, I wanted to ask you, what was the state of the Gay Rights Movement there, and in that time period? And on top of that, how did the Gay Rights movement in Ireland in that period compare to places like the UK, and the US and even other parts of Europe?
Tonie Walsh, in interview: It’s interesting that you’re using the terms Gay Rights Movement because in fact it very much was, or it felt like, lesbians and gay men to themselves- the Trans Civil Right Movement and social scene in Ireland has started to find its feet from the late 70’s onwards. A few years after the lesbian/gay civil rights movement was more formally established and structured. And they were really what those two branches of agitation and for a while certainly ran in parallel. It was really only in the 1990’s that the lesbian and civil rights- I’m jumping ahead of myself now, but I will come back and answer your question- it was really only in the 1990’s. After a lot of overtures, and you know on the basis of customer relationships that had been formed and established and were growing, that a much better enmeshment of lesbian, gay, bi and trans concerns and voices started to actually meld together in the way that we actually see today and take for granted.
But, in the 70’s.. so really we we’re almost at the cusp of the 50th anniversary of the establishment of lesbian and gay civil rights on the island of Ireland. The first noise happened in Belfast in Queens University in the liberal and progressive environment that was enabled by Queens University of Belfast. This would have been in 1971-73 and shortly thereafter something similar happened in Trinity College Dublin. The Irish Gay Rights movement was founded in Dublin and Cork following some smaller more ad-hoc groups, and by the time I got involved, shortly after the Hirschfield Centre had been established – which was the second attempt at a lesbian and gay community centre in Dublin – shortly after, I got involved. This would’ve been in late 1979, so the lesbian and gay civil rights movement was 5 years old at that point, it’s in it’s infancy and it’s full of fervour and excitement and dynamism. And you know what? That was like honey to a bee as far as I was concerned as a 19-year-old you know. Especially a 19-year-old that just wants to go out and like… change the world. It was a really exciting time- and it was a really exciting time for many reasons, 1 is because the civil rights movement needed people. If you think about it, I came of age as a young gay man and as a political activist at a time when there were zero positive images of LGBT people in the print of broadcast media or in pop culture – zero. In fact the first time I came across a positive use of the word homosexual was actually in a British feminist magazine – Spare Rib! [laughs] Which I had a subscription to! I think it must’ve been around 1977 or something [laughs].
Georgie Williams, in interview: Oh my god...
Tonie Walsh, in interview: So there was no positive images, Lesbians were routinely denied custody, lesbian mothers were routinely denied custody of their children in separation cases, there’s no divorce, of course. Homosexuality, sex between men was illegal. Although lesbians weren’t particularly penalised in a court of law, the existence of the law had the effect of just simply criminalising the totality of male and female homosexuality and how that played out was we were just simply othered. We were constantly othered by both statutory Ireland and civil society. There was marginalisation, there was exclusion, there was invisibility. And of course that’s the main issue[s] that the early civil rights movement had to address. The lack of visibility and it was one of the things that motivated me because, you know as a 19 year old I just didn’t see myself reflected back. I didn’t see my value system as a young gay man. A late teenage gay man, reflected back at me. I mean the year I came out was also the year of Ireland’s first gay youth group which was established by the National Gay Federation at a time when any conversations around youth sexuality was quite fraught and good luck to discussing the needs and concerns and dreams and aspirations of lesbian and gay youth, you just didn’t get a look in- and you even had formal statutory bodies like National Youth Council of Ireland and Coiste Gairmoideachais which was the youth arm of the Dublin vocational education committee actively working against embracing lesbian and gay youths. The NGF youth group had its affiliations to National Youth Council refused twice, which is quite extraordinary.
So yeah it was exciting because we needed to fight for representation, we needed to fight for visibility, we needed to fight for our voice, and we needed to get laws changed. And the early focus in the 80s was first and foremost on reform of the criminal law and then imagining what would happen after that. And it was actually difficult. You know in the lead up to our meet today I was just thinking back, doing a little time travelling and thinking back to the manifesto that I remember we used in gay pride week, 1980 was my first pride week. And there weren’t enough people for a parade so we actually had a balloon drop and we leafletted the city centre of Dublin and we had a picnic in Merrion Square the following day and we were actually asked to leave the square by the park wardens, yeah. “dirty queers” or whatever. But I’m thinking back to the manifesto pride week that year and nowhere on it did the word ‘marriage’ or ‘marriage equality’ was mentioned. It was talk of recognition of relationships in the context of taxation and hospital visiting rights and whatever. But you know we didn’t even imagine that we could get married at that point.
Remember to us we’re talking about a period, toward the period up until the decriminalisation in 1993 we couldn’t even… male or male rape just simply wasn’t the concept. And of course to like.. we’re framing all of this, the impact of the criminal law and what that did, not just sent men to prison unnecessarily for consensual sex. It forced many lesbians and gay men to actually leave the country, in search of a more socially liberal environments so they headed off to New York or San Francisco or Amsterdam or Berlin, Paris, wherever… and that loss is incalculable I often think about it because I had peers my age.. you know, as soon as they graduated from college just up-sticks. Mind you, a lot of people left in the 80’s because it was so economically grim and that’s when we look back at that period, we tend to actually focus on the economic welfare or the absence of economic welfare in 1980s Ireland where we forget to parse the hostile social environments that existed at the time. And you know it was so hostile that men were routinely beaten up in the streets just for ‘looking gay’. And of course as you know there was a series of brutal murders right throughout the 70s and 80s and actually now after the distance of time we can look back and realise that some of the more egregious examples of anti-gay violence and anti-gay brutality that we witnessed throughout the 80s actually was a push-back against this unfolding liberation of the greater voice that we were framing for ourselves and the greater visibility that we were framing for ourselves.
Georgie Williams, voiceover: Tonie refers here to a series of homophobic beatings of several individuals and the brutal murder of Declan Flynn, a gay man, in Fairview Park in Dublin. Fairview Park was a popular gay cruising area at the time and on September 9th, 1982, Flynn passed through this park and was set upon by a gang of five men, who beat him to death. In his confession, one of the killers stated that, and I quote, "We were part of the team to get rid of queers from Fairview Park." At sentencing, all five walked free. In suspending the sentences of all five perpetrators, presiding judge Mr Justice Gannon said “One thing that has come to my mind is that there is no element of correction that is required. All of you come from good homes and experienced care and affection.” In response to the verdict, around 400 people marched in protest, in the largest gay rights demonstration ever seen in Ireland at this stage in its history.
Tonie Walsh, in interview: There were elements of society that were continuously pushing back against that but you know what? It was a fucking exciting time to be alive [laughs] because there was a sense of ‘anything is possible’. There’s also something really interesting about being a sexual outlaw, because you’re not bound by any rule books, you know? There’s no rule book! I mean, in a way, it’s bloody disgusting that society ignores you and makes you invisible and diminishes you and everything else, especially if that plays out in a really hostile, nasty, and demeaning way. But on the other hand, it also, paradoxically, gives you the freedom, there’s something inherently liberating in knowing that you’re a sexual outlaw, you’re not bound by the same heteronormative rules as the rest of society. You can go off and do whatever you want! You know? Which we did! And that meant, you know in some ways we also took our queue from the second wave of feminism in the 1970s as well, where we were … we felt like sort-of, sexual pioneers, you know? Exploring a new frontier, an exciting frontier where we were, you know, considering and framing and developing new ways to actually have relationships, new ways to actually build families, new ways to build communities and actually build a better society for ourselves and everyone else around us.
It was always a great quote at early pride events in Dublin in the early 80s, I remember the National Gay Federation had this massive banner that said “gay liberation is your liberation” and for years in my own conceited way as a sort-of 20-something fella I … for a long time thought that that message was for me, gay liberation was my liberation. I don’t know what age I was when I realised that actually that, that message was being sent by Irish lesbians and gay men to the rest of Irish society, you know? Liberate us, it’s not some zero game here, liberate us and then allow us to liberate ourselves and we will liberate everyone else in our wake’. You know? And effectively that’s what we… I like to think that’s what has happened along the way. You know I think Irish…not just Irish… lesbians and gay men the world over, and also our trans brothers and sisters, I think, because of the struggles we’ve… the choices we make, the struggles we’ve endured, the sacrifices we’ve made, should just simply build better societies for everyone. That the effect of the choices we’ve made and the struggles that have played out, the effect of that has been to force society to actually look in on itself and ask significant questions about what constitutes our humanity? Ask questions about, you know, what empathy is- what concern is for our fellow brothers and sisters? And I think you know, we never… the LGBT liberation movement, the civil rights movement, has never really got due credit for the fact that not only have we... in the face of extraordinary hostility and obstacles that have been put in our way, not only have we managed to liberate ourselves, but we’ve also actually done a considerable service to the rest of mainstream society. You know? Everybody benefits at the end of the day!
Georgie Williams, in interview: Yeah, you’re 100% right and I think that it’s something that I’ve discussed with people before and it’s the idea that particularly gender and sexuality rights movements- they facilitate a certain amount of introspection. And as somebody who… my background has obviously been in gender, I, for the longest time have said “everybody thinks they’re an expert in gender because they have one” and why I say that is because I think so often, because things like gender and sexuality are such personal subjects, when we other people based on something that is a contrast to something that is within ourselves, that reflection makes us become introspective and consider, right, well why is it that I have considered these people different to myself in a way that’s often negative. And you’re right I think that proliferates because it’s not just about gender or sexuality- it can become about socioeconomic status, and race, and you know disability, as well. And also I loved what you said about the concept of being a sexual outlaw, because I’ve always been fascinated with the idea of ‘the good gay’ vs ‘the bad queer’-
[Tonie laughs]
Georgie Williams, in interview: -you know the individual that’s accepted because you assimilate as much as possible and you’ll reproduce those cis-heteronormative values, and then the ‘bad queer’. You know?
Tonie Walsh, in interview: Sure. You know every year around pride we seem to have this.. there’s a certain conversation around assimilation and identity and I think many people too easily conflate ‘acceptance’ with ‘assimilation’; they’re not the same thing. I mean I think I want to be accepted on my own terms, as a queer Irish man, because I bloody well fought for it and I made hard choices and sometimes lead to social ostracism have lead to me getting beaten up getting a hiding, have lead to people treating me less and everything, so I feel I’ve earnt the right to actually decide for myself what my place is in society and also I’ve decided that my place is at the centre of society but on my own bloody queer terms, you know? And I think that’s what we all should be aspiring to do but that doesn’t mean that just because we’re looking for acceptance, that we actually have to wilfully allow our unique, queer identity and our unique, queer world view to be assimilated by the mainstream- Jesus Christ what’s the point then, you know?
[Georgie laughs]
Tonie Walsh, in interview: What’s the point, you know? It just feels that we’re negating, all those hard won successes we’re just negating them all, and it counts for naught, and ends up being naught, that’s not much life really, because that means we’re settling for less. I, I subscribe hugely to the notion that what we do in life has a significant impact on other people, other people as individuals and as a community.
Georgie Williams, voiceover: In scholar Páraic Kerrigan’s book LGBTQ Visibility, Media and Sexuality in Ireland, Kerrigan writes about the complex dynamics of Irish queer visibility in Irish media between 1974 and 2008. In explaining the mapping of his book, Kerrigan states, “The book uses the term ‘queer’ to describe ‘whatever is at odds with the normal, the legitimate, the dominant’”. This classification of queer in the context of Irish history is so insightful, so emblematic of what it means to be fighting for a queer Ireland- that it is more than allowing what Tonie describes as a ‘queer world view assimilated into the mainstream’. The questions we must ask now are, what is the normal, the legitimate and the dominant when we consider anti-queer Irish sentiment, both overt and implicit? How do religion, class and race form that sense of cultural identity? What does an Ireland that makes space for the normal and the queer look like?
In the next episode, the second half of this two-parter, Tonie sheds light on the future of a queer Ireland- the reclamation of pride from commercialism, LGBTQ+ culture in rural communities, and how to approach the increasingly pertinent matter of supporting queer elders as our population ages. We are on the precipice of understanding queer Irish culture- and there is still much to learn. I hope you join us next time for part two of Building a Queer Ireland.
This episode of the /Queer Podcast was edited by Sam Clay, transcribed by Bronya Smith, co-scripted and produced by myself and Matt Thompson and hosted as always by me, Georgie Williams. A very special thanks to Tonie Walsh for all of his fantastic contributions to this episode- I have been a big fan of Tonie’s for a long time and making this interview happen was very special for me. Thanks as always also go to our Patreon subscribers- this project continues to expand and as we reach the final leg of Season One, we have now had engagement in 124 countries around the world. If you’re not a patron and want to support the podcast, you can find the /Queer Patreon at patreon.com/slashqueer. That’s S-L-A-S-H Queer. The link is also available on our Facebook, Instagram and Twitter pages. We released some gorgeous new merchandise in June as part of our Pride Month celebrations and are still accepting donations via Ko-fi and you can find the links to both in the description for this episode. Finally, our thanks also go to you- our wonderful listeners. You’re the reason this project is still going and your support means the world to our little team.
This episode was recorded between London in the United Kingdom and Antalya, Turkey. Music in this episode was composed by our resident audio king, Sam Clay. If you enjoyed this episode or have any feedback, please get in touch on Instagram or Twitter at @SlashQueer or email us at slashqueer@outlook.com. As always, stay kind, stay radical and stay queer.